Coffee With Chris - Latest Comments

Re: A Response

Brian — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:16:55 -0000

Chris,
A very thoughtful follow up to the previous post and to your commenter. I think you raise all the right questions. The fact that answers are not right on their heels is just evidence of the fact that what we do isn't a science, isn't a marketing strategy, and that we ultimately are not completely in control of the process. Definitely enjoy reading your blog!

Re: To Tat or Not To Tat

benboles — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:25:36 -0000

Chris, I agree we shouldn't make a habit of using humans as a gimmick. Now I read the blogs of a few of the guys who have done this and I don't believe they used the person as the gimmick but that someone in church is getting a tattoo. I think these people who got tattoo's got what they wanted not some sermon or series graphic or church logo. But to say all that I think we need to watch how we exploit people for our own gain in any situation.

Re: To Tat or Not To Tat

CoffeeWithChris — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:50:28 -0000

For some odd reason, the play button from seesmic is floating all the way to the top of the page, near compassion banner in the upper left corner.

Re: To Tat or Not To Tat

benboles — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:27:20 -0000

how do you view you video reply?

Re: To Tat or Not To Tat

CoffeeWithChris — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:39:56 -0000

Video reply: To Tat or Not To Tat?
Trying to figure out why Seesmic & Disqus aren't playing nice. In the meantime you can see my reply here:
http://seesmic.com/video/HM...

Re: To Tat or Not To Tat

benboles — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:13:27 -0000

I've seen that a few churches have done a teaching series involving ink on stage during the message. I've seen and been present at churches that have artists on stage painting or doing other creative types of things on stage during teaching times. As someone with a tat, I don't have problems with with people who do or churches that use it as a creative element during their message. I think it could be distracting with the buzz from the needle and depending on who is getting the tattoo their facial expressions might be more interesting than the message. Not in a bad way but it's another gimmick, which we all use them or wish we did. It's a way to create buzz around your new series and to get people in the door, which are not bad things as long as we make the most out of every opportunity and not skimp on preaching the word of God.

You asked for our opinions, what's yours?

Re: The Frustration

Jason Tarnowski — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 03:37:39 -0000

OK, this will be long I am sure, but bear with me since it is 2:30 AM and I have been struggling as to how to reply to this post for 2 days now. I flippantly replied to the original post of the email Chris received, but that reply meant so much more then what it said. So I wanted to make sure that my thoughts were better organized for this reply since I feel this post is important for all of us to truly understanding Chris's frustration as I believe we all feel this way at some time in ministry if not all the time.

I too have been struggling with the need to advertise for anything we do. I am a youth pastor at a growing church in a rural part of upstate new york. I have seen the attendance in our youth group go from 25 on a Sunday night for both Jr high and Sr high to 65 regularly in the past 3 years. That is also how long I have been the youth pastor here. I too was in the mindset at the beginning of my work in the ministry that we need to advertise heavy and make everything big in order to attract the teens to come out in hopes that a percentage would stick around a few weeks past the event in order to get hooked on why we really invited them out, to hear about Jesus. I have given away my share of i-pods, movie tickets, remote control cars, candy, and other items.

Here is my assesment of every time we have done something: They come because there is a friend that is there that asked them to come. AND: They come back because their friend was able to "convince" (for lack of a better word) them to come back. I have 14 awesome adult leaders who volunteer every Sunday night, and then some, to be small group leaders. They also are part of the reason for the teens coming and continuing to come. They have learned how important it is to be a person in their life that is able to connect with them and speak truth into their life when necessary. They did not come solely because of a giveaway or our fancy advertising. And they didn't come back because of it either.

This is why I do not advertise like I used to. Why spend all that money on a poster or flyer when the only way they will come is if a friend invites them? Does that friend need to have a card to give out in order to "close the deal"? I think not. If their friend is genuine enough, and their friendship strong enough, the friend will come simply because they will have someone there that they know and trust. And in order to get that already commited teen to know that they are inviting their friend to an environment they know will be able to reach their friend, they have to trust us. If we keep saying "Invite your friends, THEY COULD WIN AN I-POD!!", and then after that say"and hopefully they will learn about Jesus Christ", they will not feel comfortable about bringing their friend. This generation can smell inauthenticity a mile away. They want to hear the truth and be able to decipher it themselves. they want you to be honest and up front with them so that they can debate you and see you remain consistent in your answers. They want to hear and see the authenticity of your faith lived out. If you win them over with an i-pod, then I wonder if they will always wonder in the back of their mind if they were tricked. I think I would.

My in-laws are part of a time share conglomerate where they pay a fee every month and they can go on vacation practically anywhere in the United States 3 times a year. My wife and I have joined them a few times. And every time my in-laws will ask, "Hey go take the tour and see if they can offer you a deal". I won't do it. I cringe when they even ask me to since I almost feel compelled to since they invited us to go on vacation with tem. I am also starting to regret going on vacation since it has opened the door to say we don't mind going and it encourages them to try to get us to take the tour again since if we sign up it benefits them as well. Are they manipulators? No. Would it benefit us if we went on the tour? Sure. Why wont I do it? I hate being manipulated into something that I do not feel I am in control of. I know that they are going to show me how great the place is, what the benefits of having a prepaid vacation are, why they are the best company to buy from, they will even give me a free night and a meal if I sign up today. Then they sit me down with the cost. Why can't they tell me the cost up front? If it is worth everything they say then give me the cost first, then back it up with all the good stuff.

I think this is what teens are looking for. Most of them know about God, and even Jesus, even if they have not stepped foot in a church before. Jesus never promised people a new pair of sandals for listening to Him. He did however meet their needs and they in return listened to what he had to say. He fed them, and healed them. He met their physical needs in order to show them HIs understanding of where they were in life and in turn they listened to the truth He had to tell them. Why don't we try to do this? Why don't we put our money were our mouth is and get more involved where they are instead of trying to get them to come to us and our i-pods? What community center have you volunteered in lately? What school function of theirs have you gone to lately? When was the last time you talked to a teen whos homelife is so bad you are considering calling CPS, but you are struggling with that since you are afraid of the consequences of losing the teen if the family gets in trouble with the law?

The last point I think is vital as we move forward in youth ministry is the involvement and connection we have with the parents. If you have not talked with a parent about a teen you have been working with at least once this past week, then how far do you think your words will carry? We need to start helping parents understand how important they are to their teens growth as a Christian and coming into adulthood. We get 1 hour a week at best with their teen. 52 HOURS A YEAR IF YOU ARE LUCKY!! That is not enough time to mold and shape a teen to become the adult they need to be by the time they graduate High School and enter College or the working world. We need to team up with the people that see them the most: Mom and Dad! I send an email every week to parents to keep them up to date on what we are teaching and also announcements. I have seen attendance rise dramatically since I have done that since parents are now feeling involved with what is going on. They feel more comfortable with bringing their teen since they feel involved. I personally feel that there is more that I need to do to get those parents in a position to be the spiritual leaders of their home and of their teens. I feel that if we do that, then there will be a much stronger base of Christian teens that will be reaching their friends for Christ because they aren't just hearing the truth of the bible lived out on Sundays, but all week long. And their respect for God will be much stronger as they learn to respect their parents.

Lets start to work on the family as a whole. That is my next step. A friend of mine who is a youth pastor in the lower part of NY has the parents come in and worship and listen to the lesson with their teens. Then they have their own small group. I personally feel I would lose kids if we had their parents in the same room with them, so I am trying to come up with a way for them to be there, but upstairs during everything. Then we can live feed the talks up to where they are and they can move into smal groups afterwards. My senior pastor (very wise man) warned that one of the problems with that is an unhealthy parent driving home with their teen and verbally pounding the message they just heard into them. Kind of like our moms used to do to us on the way home from church:"Did you hear what the pastor said today about honoring your parents?" So there is some work to be done there.

Those are my feelings on the subject at hand. Feel free to disect it and respond with where you see flaws. Thanks for reading.

Re: A Response

CoffeeWithChris — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:07:40 -0000

Thanks for the thoughts Mike! Like I said in the post, I REALLY don't want to come across as attempting beat someone up over a comment on my blog, especially Sherri because she was brave enough to post a contrary thought to what was happening here yesterday AND she seems REALLY nice from all the tweets of her's that I read :-)

I'll be the first to admit that I am currently stuck in doing ministry exactly like Sherri has described. A couple weeks ago we gave away an iPod (the sweet, new Nano in orange), tomorrow night we are having a big jr high event at which we average about 6 times our normal attendance.

My unrest comes from seeing so many kids showing up at these events and just hearing about Jesus and not really ever getting to experience Him first hand.

Re: A Response

Mike — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:45:49 -0000

Hi Chris,
I like your thinking. You are on the same wavelength that a few of us are on. I just had breakfast with one of the youth leaders in our church yesterday and we both agreed with the points you were making. We are so tired of the attitude that we need to appeal to teens to "win them to Christ" like that makes us successful in youth ministry. I like how you described it as simply making disicples. Why do we think we need to have a drawing for an iPod to reach teens? I think we are the only religion that needs to bribe people to check us out! I have heard of teens in other religions that literally give their lives for a cause they believe in without having to win an iPod. Why is the gospel of Jesus not enough to satifiy this generation? Maybe because we have watered it down so much that it is not worth giving your life for! And why do we need a big event where 1000 kids come out to feel like we reached teens? What about the youth leader who take one teen out for coffee on a Sunday and listens to them talk about their life? What if that teen reaches one of their friends and offers them the same love and compassion? maybe then we would be more like Jesus and less like the world...maybe then we will have teens willing to lay down their lives to God because they are so much in love with him..not the iPod they won at an event where 1000 kids showed up...

just some thoughts!

Mike

Re: The Frustration

Sherri — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:19:14 -0000

To David: Amen, Brother! Both must be accomplished. Not two opposing methods of ministry, but parallel methods of ministry. (There are just so many of those little stinkers out there, we need to approach evengelism from every angle :-) (Two different approaches to ministry, but with the same goal.)

Re: The Frustration

David — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:06:58 -0000

a look at the life of Christ makes me not so sure that this is even the right question to be asking: "how do you get unchurched teens into church?"

the right question might be: how do i join in on God's ongoing work of empowering and enabling His church (our students) so that they can get out into the culture/community at large with a life that is contagious with a message of redemption and hope?

two very different questions and two different approaches to ministry

honestly - i don't do either that well but that doesn't excuse me from asking the question

Re: The Frustration

CoffeeWithChris — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:27:33 -0000

Sheri, thanks for adding your voice to the conversation!

I am wondering what some other folks take on your comment might be.

Your questions are great and they are making me think, maybe I'll be writing some about them tonight for a post here tomorrow!

Re: The Frustration

Sherri — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:03:54 -0000

OK, I'm gonna throw my two cents in:

I volunteer in a youth ministry in a so called "mega church" where we average 500 kids on a regular Wed. eve. and 900-1000 on "big" nights.

In reflecting my pastor's thoughts, the point is realizing where kids are, in THEIR mindset and THEIR culture and reaching into that realm long enough to get their attention.

A kid's social life is their number 1 priority, whether they are willing to admit it or not and face it, if you give an average kid two event invitations and one is to a Bible study and another is to a cheese burger eating contest on the same night at the same time, which one do you think they would choose?

It would be wonderful if awesome worship and great teaching were enough to get unchurched teens interested in coming to church, but it just isn't. (I guess that would be "the pull of community winning over the pull of consumerism.") Maybe in a perfect world....

Anyway, is it really that bad (or "unspiritual") to promote a drawing for a free ipod to get them in the door and then allow them to experience awesome worship, great teaching and an opportunity to hear the gospel that they wouldn't have otherwise? (Or what you have dubbed, "Mary Poppins Youth Ministry.)

(I'm really not trying to be contentious here, but) how do you get unchurched teens into church? If it irks you so much, what is your alternative solution?

(And if I may add, if there is no follow-up discipleship of these new teen Christians to teach them how to live the Christ life, then yes, we are right back into a shallow Mary Poppins Youth Ministry.)

Re: The Frustration

CoffeeWithChris — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:47:07 -0000

This is what makes the jump out of this old way of doing youth ministry so difficult, it is going to look so different in each and every situation. In one situation it may mean simply "re-purposing" existing events and communicating why they are happening. In other situations it may mean throwing everything that was familiar out the window in a sort of youth ministry "detox."

The later is much scarier for a church and a leader!

Re: The Frustration

Sara — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:22:04 -0000

That makes total sense! I really appreciate that new perspective with regards to 'tension' ... I guess I need to wrestle out the difference between attracting students with flashy things and inviting students who are in community to enjoy those same things together. For instance: You can bring in a band, crazy event stations, etc. to attract students to the ministry OR you can bring in those same things occasionally to enjoy with the students who have already built community. They're two completely different scenarios. I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Re: The Frustration

CoffeeWithChris — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:58:17 -0000

Thanks Sara! I am working through trying to figure out if there needs to be balance or if there needs to be tension. I hope I can't verbalize the difference that I am feeling.
When I think of balance, I am thinking of adding something or taking away something in order to offset what I took away or added in a different area. I don't think I want balance in this case, I think I want tension and for the pull of community to win over the pull of consumerism more often than not.

I really hope that makes sense.

Re: The Frustration

Sara — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:49:39 -0000

I got that same consumerism tone when I read it yesterday. Unfortunately I have that log in my eye as well. I do think there's a balance. I'm not against fun and crazy events once in a while. But our ministry can't be BUILT on those things. If the only reason the kids are coming is because there's an ipod giveaway at the end of the night, then I'm totally missing the mark.

However, I look at the things I choose to attend and wonder if I'm just as bad. If there's a worship leader that I like or a speaker I enjoy listening to I'm much more likely to make it a priority. Not a pretty thing to look at it the mirror - but there it is.

I look forward to following this conversation as it continues.

Re: The Frustration

CoffeeWithChris — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:41:38 -0000

Where our heart is is such a huge part of all this isn't it!? Thanks for bringing that up Kevin! Where I am having trouble is in the "attractive" nature of some of the events in youth ministry. Kids can certainly tell when something is simply being done to attract or if it is being done to create community, they may not be able to articulate it, but that is the exact reason why it is so important that the adults have the right "heartset" & mindset.

Thanks again Kevin!

Re: The Frustration

Kevin — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:25:42 -0000

I can see where the frustration comes from, but I guess to me it seems the change is one of mindset: I don't have any false hopes - I know that some of the activities I encourage my youth to attend won't change them, only Christ can. I took some youth roller-skating in Auburn last week, but I didn't have any silly notions that that was going to bring them closer to Christ, I just know that spending time in fellowship with one another and with adults who care about them might make them think more about God than they would have otherwise.

I feel like that's where Youth Ministry 3.0 comes in (from what I remember from Marko's talk at last year's NYWC in Atlanta). Earlier, in the "2.0" period, people did activities because "that's what you do", as an end in itself, but now in trying to be more relational with our youth, we still need activities & programs as a means to an end. We need these activities to build a relationship with our youth, so that we can help lead them closer to Jesus.

Of course, maybe I'm completely wrong. But, your post did make me think of a quote from The Godbearing Life:

"And yet who I am with youth, and not what I do with them, is what they will remember twenty years from now. Who I am with youth ultimately determines whether my ministry points to Jesus Christ or to something else. All those Sunday night meetings, service projects, whitewater rafting trips, and spaghetti dinners mattered only to the extent that they serve as occasions to live my faith in the presence of youth and to remind youth that they have a faith to live too."

::shrug:: Just my two cents.

Re: NYWC - Pittsburgh

Angela Ralston — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:11:40 -0000

Hi, I’ve noticed that you’ve blogged about Crazy Love, by Francis Chan. Just wanted you to know that the videos to accompany the book are now available to download at:
http://www.crazylovebook.co...

Also, a Crazy Love small group dvd with never-before-seen content will be available in January. Because of your wonderful blog post about the book, I’d like to offer you a free pre-release copy of the dvd to review. Please email me your address, and I’d be happy to send it. Thanks!

Angela.Ralston@davidccook.com

Re: Youth Ministry 2.0

CoffeeWithChris — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:36:42 -0000

I think kids would still really enjoy all that stuff listed, there is something deeper that really bothers me about this email.

Re: Youth Ministry 2.0

Jason — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:54:44 -0000

Oh boy! Gutters filled with ice cream?! I know I loved to do it when i was a teen....20 years ago!!

Re: 2 Out of 3 Aint Bad!

Abbie — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:58:11 -0000

What a great post and a great scripture to live by!

Bless you for using your voice for the children and their families who live in poverty.

Will you join us? http://allinhisdesign.blogs...

Re: Youth Ministry 3.0

Jason — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:48:30 -0000

Thanks for the overview. Very broad overview I should say. You definitely kept it to just the facts and that intrigues me about it more. I am definitely more curious now then I was before about this book and it's sayings on youth ministry today and how we are handling it.

From some of your comments I am thinking I know where the book is going to go with the 3.0 ideas. If it is then I totally agree with your assessment of how do we get enough healthy Christian adults mobilized to do what is needed for our teens right now.

Can't wait to order it!

Jason

Re: 2 Out of 3 Aint Bad!

Sara — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:47:47 -0000

I love this!! Very well stated.

I pray that we can all figure out ways to live it out.